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Emerge + Expand Episode 009: Sustainable Visibility® with Mai-Kee Tsang

When I first decided to create the Emerge + Expand podcast, Mai-kee Tsang was top of my list for who I wanted to invite to be a guest. I’d heard her interviewed on another podcast and seen a quote that resonated so perfectly with the kind of business I want to create. I was so thrilled when she said yes to being a guest.

Join us for this new Do Business Differently interview where we talk about:

  • How to find safety in your visibility as a business owner, especially if you are a trauma survivor or hold other marginalised identities.
  • Why it’s important to be aware of your own privileged and marginalised identities when taking up opportunities to be more visible and be in spaces with others and also when holding space from an intersectional mindset.
  • Mai-kee’s personal litmus test to decide where she wants to put her time and energy and ensure her own safety in her visibility.
  • Important things to be mindful of to get consent from our clients and maintain trust and confidentiality, even just with sharing DM testimonials and who is joining our programs.
  • And so much more.

CONTENT WARNING: This episode contains brief but acknowledgeable mentions of the escalation of Asian Hate Crimes in 2021+, as well as the specific mention of the Atlanta incident (guns & murder) at 06:30-0:745. Listener discretion is advised.

Or listen on Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Stitcher


Mai-kee Tsang (She/Her) is The Sustainable Visibility® Mentor, Certified Trauma-Sensitive Leadership Coach & Podcast Guesting Strategy Trainer.

She helps underestimated & underrepresented entrepreneurs to take an intersectional approach to visibility, so they can feel safer to be seen as they show up more consistently to grow their impact-fuelled businesses.





This is episode number nine of the Emerge and Expand podcast. Hi, and welcome to another episode of the Emerge and Expand podcast. I’m your host, Katherine Mackenzie-Smith. And I have another amazing interview with an incredible entrepreneur for you today for the due business differently interview series Mai-Kee Tsang is the Sustainable Visibility mentor, certified trauma sensitive leadership coach and podcast guesting strategy trainer. She helps underestimated and underrepresented entrepreneurs to take an intersectional approach to visibility so they can feel safer to be seen as a show up more consistently to grow their impact fueled businesses. When I first decided to create the Emerge and Expand podcast Mai-Kee was someone right at the top of my list that I absolutely knew I had to have on the podcast because her work is not only so important, it is something that I know that so many of you wanna know more about this idea of being seen, being visible, but doing it in a way that feels safe in your nervous system in your body and allows you to be able to grow in your own way. Just before we dive into this episode, I just wanna place a trigger warning at the start to let you know that our conversation has a brief, but acknowledgeable mention of the escalation of Asian hate crimes in 2021 and beyond as well as a specific mention of the Atlanta incident. There is a pause before that conversation goes into it, but listener discretion is advised.



Hi, Mai-Kee. It’s so wonderful to have you here on the due business differently interview series. Can we just start by having you tell everyone a little bit about you and the work that you do?



Oh, well, first of all, thank you so, so much for having me. And as soon as you told me the name of your podcast, I was like, yes,



Do business differently. And I think that we’ve beautifully into your first question. Like what do I do? So I’ve always been that kind of person who’s been curious about what else could work outside of the status quo. And it’s not for the joy of being rebellious or anything like that. It’s just out of curiosity, because I started noticing that there are some conversations in the online business space around visibility that felt very one size visible. You only put yourself out there and that’s it full stop. And I appreciate that I can work for some people, but I started seeing visibility through a lens of trauma because personally I am a trauma survivor. And when I started to unpack in therapy, by the way, many, many experiences, and just the realization of the impact of my identities and the intersections of the mall, I started to get curious again and ask bigger questions.



How else can we do this? And I remember just having this conversation with one of my friends of mine, and I just felt really frustrated with the current conversations, how it felt like you are either visible or you’re not like there’s no in between, there’s no spectrum, so to speak. And I said to her, I want to revolutionize what it means to be visible in the online space. And so that is how the movement of sustainable visibility came about. And that’s really about taking a trauma sensitive intersectional approach that really helps you show up in a way that makes you feel safe enough to be with your audience, to collaborate with people and just to really do it on your terms,



That is so close to my heart. And I love how even just discussing that with close people in your inner circle, kind of helped that evolve into what it has become today in your business. The, the first time that I came across you and your work was through your guest appearance on the small business boss podcast, and a quote of yours that Maggie used just really stood out to me. And I just thought straight away, I must connect with this person because the quote was, I’m just gonna say it for anyone who hasn’t seen it or listened to that episode was when it comes to visibility. We need to think about safety first strategy. Second, we need to honor our personal capacity and just so much, yes, it is such a, you know, I think Joseph Gordon Levitt said it that’s the first place I ever heard.



This mentioned that we live in the age of the attention economy. And I know for people coming from all books of life, but especially because introverts and highly sensitive souls and neuro divergent souls are close to my heart. And the work that I do in my audience, this idea of visibility can be so pressing on it on the edges of our own personal safety. And you’re absolutely right. We live in this online space where you need to do all of these things. There’s all these rules that you need to do in order to be successful and be seen and get that attention in order to make lots of money. Basically, I guess my question for you is can you maybe share a little bit with us about how that has evolved in your business for anyone who is kind of navigating that fine line between being seen and feeling safe doing that, and then also that, that simultaneous fear of not being seen by not doing the things that we are told we should be doing in business.



Mm oh, that’s such a good question. And why I have to say to that is when you think of being sustainably visible, I invite people to not consider it as a goal to be achieved per se, but more as a state to just embody and to honor the fluidity of it all and how the fact that it moves, it shifts along with you as life happens. Because the fact, the problem I personally find with many strategies out there is there’s often very minimal room for changes. And so the prescriptive way for me personally, now, please do not like, take this as like, oh, okay. Needs to do that now. Like, no, no, no, please take what resonates and leave behind what doesn’t sort of thing with anything I speak about. Yeah. Think of it as a state to embody something that moves with you as you evolve and as life changes because life happens and you need to have something that works with you. So I, I noticed in my own business that my capacity greatly greatly shrunk in 2021. So I do wanna provide a trigger warning for anybody who may be listening to this right now. And, and for you as well, Catherine, I’m gonna have a very brief mention of the, the escalation of Asian hate crimes in 2021. So I’m just gonna take a moment.



So during that time, I remember it was around March, April, 2021. There was the Atlanta incident where I believe it was six Asian women that were shot in a, I think it was in a spa like place. And I just remember that felt like the trigger for so, so, so, so, so many Asian hate based crimes, especially, but not only in America, I’m personally based in the UK. And I know that a lot of the news was centralized around America, but I don’t want to diminish any incidents that happened just worldwide, full stop, but there was a huge escalation worldwide, and I felt incredibly, incredibly hurt by so much of it because it’s my, my people, my, my heritage, and I did not really take into account how much visibility could feel like such an exposed feeling. If you do not have the protection to help you with that. And actually I do wanna quote this Instagram person who I follow their handle is pink Manter Ray. And what he said is visibility is a trap without protection. Mm.



And I remember just feeling like I didn’t want to do anything. I just wanted to grieve. I needed to be with my family. I needed to be with my friends and check in with everyone who I knew. And it was just such a heavy time. And I was like the go to visibility person, especially when it came to podcast pitching, because that was where I got my start in the visibility world. And I remember suddenly having so many more layers in place that I needed to have honored. Should I show up with someone? I started to be more incredibly discerning with who I associate myself with because I actually really pay attention to who I collaborate with and who I advocate for and whether their character is responsive to certain sensitive issues. And I realize my priority’s definitely shifted. And now when I talk about visibility is not about get in front of as many people as possible to expand your reach because yes, that can absolutely work for some, but then I really had to take into account these intersections of our identities and how that really impacts how safe we feel when we show up and be visible.



Yeah. So it absolutely shifted, especially in 2021. And now I say no, a lot more than I do. Yes. I’ve had to really pay attention and assess which visibility opportunities are both effective for my business and energetically efficient for me. And just kind of like having that just really be centralized around my sense of safety. And that’s what I invite my clients to do is what invite anyone who I teach this methodology to this philosophy. Yeah. So it’s absolutely shifted for sure. Based on social issues, especially ones that hit very close to home to myself and all people I really care about. So yeah. It’s definitely been a Mo it’s definitely been moving and shifting yeah. Things have happened.



Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that with us, because I think the conversation around visibility and being seen and getting your workout into the world just really is devoid of the vast human lived experience and pain and trauma that people have had that then paints this picture of what, having an online business or having a platform or being on social media. Even the fact that that just looks so different for every single person and I’m anyone who knows me, everyone knows gonna start a bingo card on this podcast about how often I talk about this one size fits all method that we see talked about so much in the online space. And just even that story, you know, really recognizing that, that people like yourself and who come from certain communities where we’ve just seen so many different news experiences, but also it’s like been around for so long. You know, there’s so many different experiences and lived experiences that people are bringing to their business and their visibility when they decide to step into this. And I think it’s a really important one that we should be talking about more.



Hmm. Yeah. Like, thank you so much for acknowledging that as, as you were speaking, I was thinking directly of two of my friends who really helped inform my work as well, because I asked them, oh, how things are going. And because they told me that they wanted to guest on more podcasts to grow their business. And I asked how that was going just out of just simple curiosity and just catching up. And they said to me, you know, I would love to be on more podcast, but I honestly don’t know who is safe enough for me to show up with. And that really gave me such insight into the window of privilege that I wasn’t aware that I had, because while I do have marginalized identities, I do need to also acknowledge that I have privileged ones as well. And all of us do to a degree.



You know, it’s just kind of like the proportions, like which way is it leaning? So for example, a privileged identity of mine, I could argue that my citizenship, the fact that I am a British born citizen, that in itself is a privilege when it comes to my language skills. Because I remember when I used to be a copywriter, I didn’t understand this at the time, but I felt like I needed to en needed to emphasize that I was British to give an indication of my level of education and my, my fluency in the English language. And it wasn’t until I spoke to one of my friends who is also an ethnic minority who shared their experience around how they get profiled, they get judged as soon as they are seen not before they get a chance to demonstrate how great they are with the work they do.



And so it made me think about that. So that is a privilege of mine that I have a British citizenship. Yeah. I’m also cisgendered. So those are some examples there of my privilege identities. And I’m also on the flip side, an ethnic minority, I’m a trauma survivor. I’m on the B Q I AP plus spectrum. So, you know, it’s, it’s kind of like the mix and match. So that’s why I end by everyone who’s listening right now, just to really take a step back and consider which identities and the proportions of your identities, that which may lean towards privilege and which ones may be leaning towards marginalization, because that’s gonna greatly influence how safe you feel when you want to show up on a consistent basis.



Yes. Such an important thing. And in terms of how we find that safety for ourselves, it’s by actually having that self-awareness in the first place. Can you just tell us on touching on that? How do you navigate that when you’re making decisions in your business about who you might want to work with or what opportunities you say yes. To when it comes to your visibility, but also your business and how you navigate that?






Yeah. If you don’t mind sharing.



Yeah, of course. Of course. So it’s almost like what are my personal litmus tests, right? Mm, yes. To saying yes or no to something. So first of all, if it’s for a business opportunity, naturally of course, like it’s a given for me to ensure that our messages align. So does my work, if there are any relation to theirs and vice versa. So that’s that, that needs to be like an absolute must, of course. But then I look at the kind of guests that they already have. So let’s say podcasts, right. I think of, and I ask directly, if, is if the information is not openly available, I ask like, who else are they interviewing? And why? Because I am curious like what their motivations are, because there is such a thing as performative allyship and performative activism. So I’m, I’m always just witnessing their work, but not just what they say, but I, I look at how they interact with their audience and to see where that loving care is.



Something that I really look for that I didn’t realize until I had a conversation with my clients inside of my program around, we were just talking about how we can navigate council culture, because that’s one of the biggest fears for those of us who want to be visible, but also afraid of being counseled. And when we were talking about that, I uncovered the fact that something I look for in people, I want to advocate for people. I wanna learn from people I want to collaborate with. I look at how they respond to situations where they’ve made a mistake and whether they’ve chosen to a dirty delete, or have they chosen to kind of like stand in the storm and you actually make re public reparations in a non performative way. And the whole performative, non performatives, honestly, that’s quite an intuitive decision is not particular criteria that I look for.



Like, oh, this looks performative. This is not performative. It’s just a feeling I get. Yeah. And I really am looking for those people who really put the humanity forward and not to have that excuse their behavior, but to understand where they originally came from and how they respond to the people who are pointing out the harm that they’ve potentially caused and what they do then. So I’m really watching a lot of what they’re doing before I even respond a lot of the time. So, and I, I do want to acknowledge again, that I am coming from a place of, please do not think that I’m on this high horse or anything like that. I’m always thinking about centralizing my sense of safety, cuz I am a trauma survivor, which naturally means that I’m extremely hypervigilant. And two, I do have anxiety as well. And so the more I know about someone before I am put into a situation where I can feel trapped in it, unless I know them well enough and have consented and agreed to certain conversations and information shared, I need to have all of that in place to honor that part of my identity as well.



Mm oh. So important. Thank you so much for sharing that with us. And one thing I noticed that you’ve been talking about a lot lately has been about consent. And I noticed this in particular recently where you shared, because this is a trend that I seen has really taken rise in the last couple of years in the marketing space, when it comes to online business, the sharing of screenshots of DMS from clients as testimonials. And you made mention to that the other day, I think in the lead up to your program, that’s about around consent right now. And I was just running like, this is obviously a huge breach of trust and confidentiality to share that without consent from our clients. And obviously testimonials are so important in our business, but I can’t help. But think that when we’re thinking about our own safety as business owners, as coaches, as all the different roles that we hold as service providers and, and online business owners, that we also need to be really mindful of the visibility that we then expose our clients to.






There a way that you’ve seen this done just in that this conversation, even with this current trend, that’s really a big deal at the moment. Is there a way that you’ve seen this done that is really well done in terms of when we’re thinking about consent and safety for our clients as well as for ourselves?



Hmm. I’m so glad that you brought this up because it literally came up in the Q and a section of my conversive consent workshop. I literally just ran last week at the time of this recording and okay. So social proof. I can, I understand the trend of using screenshots because it feels like, because if you were to type out a testimonial, anyone can think, oh, well you could have changed that word, but when it’s a screenshot, it’s like, okay, no, that, that seems real. That seems like pretty raw as it is. Yeah. You know, it just take it as is sort of thing. And actually to me personally, it’s not enough to anonymize the name, put an emoji over the picture because the person has not consented unless you ask anyway, the person has not consented to have their words that they have shared with you in a private setting, out in the open.



Even if the information in itself is not identifying of who it was or like which business they have, et cetera, for them to see their words out in the open. Even if there is not revealed who it is, it can feel quite exposing. And that’s a violation of trust. And I asked one of my clients who, who said the same thing, who, who took this workshop and what they said to me was like, yeah, when you see your own words, that is like very exposing. It doesn’t matter whether you have, you know, blurred their name or had taken off the picture or something like that. That’s not the point. And the way that I think about it is this, if you’ve chosen convenience and over the consideration of the trust that you have with your client, then that’s personally where things can really go awry. Yeah. And I noticed that when it comes to consent, it is often more quote, unquote, inconvenient to go out of your way to ask for it instead of like, oh, this is great social proof for me. So



I, what I would say to everybody who’s listening, who probably does do the screenshot thing, like, of course you can’t know better unless you know, better. Yeah. Right. Yes. And it really depends the kind of line of work you do as well. Like my line of work is extremely intimate. The things that we talk about. So I don’t do the whole screenshot thing anymore. I don’t take pictures of the calls that we do. I don’t tag everybody unless I ask them ahead of time and not asking them in front of other people, because then they can feel that pressure to say yes. Oh, everyone else said, yes. I kind of have to, like, I don’t take pictures of my clients when we have our calls. Like even if they all say yes, it’s just justt feel right. Because yeah. I know that it’s coming from a place of, oh, look how many clients I have or like, oh look, who’s in it.



Like who’s in my program. Yeah. It is coming like it’s coming from a place of self-service. And of course I can understand it’s a great way to promote, but to me, it’s just too much fodder for potential breach of trust. That to me is not worth it. So fit ability doesn’t stop at the lead generation part. It is also encompassed in the client experience and delivery of your promise of your services of your offers full stop. So yeah, to answer your question a very long winded way, what do I think about it? It’s understandable, but it’s not excusable to breach consent just for your convenience of promotion of your office.



Absolutely. And not long winded at all. So valuable and helpful. So thank you so much for sharing your thoughts. One of the best ways that I’ve personally seen it done when someone did it to me, because I’m in their membership, was they literally just asked, Hey, do you mind if I share this as a screenshot and then shared the screenshot with the consent as part of the screenshot. And I thought that that was a really, if you’re gonna do it, you know, it’s not only showing that that proof has been, you know, that that consent has been given, but also letting other people know, you know, letting your audience know that that consent has been given as well. So it’s not just assumed. And I think that sometimes the behaviors that we make, that the going with trends in the way that marketing and business is done is so important that, you know, we have standards that we set for ourselves because I think that that ripples out into the greater community as well.



Mm absolutely. And I, I also wanna make a note on the post-it note thing and I, I’m gonna totally raise both my hands here. I have so done this before I’ve only stopped doing it. Mid-launch when something about it, it did not feel right. And so even if I purchased the first name of someone, yeah, yeah. That again, they see their name and unless I ask for their consent first, like it, it, and the whole, the whole workshop is converse with consent. So to me, I felt like I was just being completely incongruent with my own messaging. So I just stopped it midway when I realized I like, wait, they didn’t ask to be on there. Like some, there, there have been some programs I’ve sold in the past where they’re like, oh yeah, put my post-it note up. They want to be part of it sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. But I actually, I, I, oh, I wish I knew who I learned this from, but it was a, it was an Instagram post, but there was one singular line that stood out beyond anything. And they said, what if I wanted my growth to be private?



Oh, oh, I love that so much.



Right. Yes. And I thought to myself, oh, that right there. So is honoring that the social currency of it all like yes. When they joined something that you offer, when, when, you know, pre clients become actual clients they’ve taken upon your offer, it may be something that they don’t wanna share with the world that they’re working on it. Yeah.



You know, it might be like, oh, I wanna work on this. And when I’m ready, I’m gonna show that I’ve been working on it. Yeah. Like there are some things that when you take it, you are FRA to shout it from the rooftops, but there are plenty of things that many of us hold, maybe some shame or judgment on or pressure to know already. And they want to do that in a place where they deem to be safe enough to explore that experiment, that. So if they see their name, regardless of whether they have the surname or they see their screenshot, regardless of whether it’s anonymized, they want that to be private. And so, yeah, it’s, it’s important to honor that. And cuz imagine if you were in their shoes. Yeah. Right. If you, if you wanted to work on something that’s so important to you, but you’re not ready to let the world know, but you see your name out in the open on this post-it note or your screenshot saying that you’ve joined in private setting of DM. It’s, it’s a lot to work with. And I, I admit it’s not the most convenient thing. However, what I would say to that is what’s more worth it to you. Is it that ease of convenience or is it maintaining and upholding the trust that you have been given the privilege of having when you work with someone? Yeah,



Absolutely. There’s two really big things that I got from what you just said. The first one is let’s all give ourselves permission to, at any point in time, change our minds about something that we maybe have always done or have done because we’ve seen others do it and have a feeling at some point that it just doesn’t feel like the right thing to do and change directions on that. I think that’s so important and such a valuable gem for anyone to take away with them and also the learning and, and putting ourselves in the shoes of our people before we share anything of theirs publicly, just so important and absolutely so much more important that relationship than any social proof or currency that comes with it. Cause again, that just then is treating those people as a transactional way of building our own credibility, as opposed to the important work that we’re doing together in that co-created space,



A hundred percent, hundred percent and a potential suggestion for the post-it note thing, instead of using a word, I’m sorry, not a word, their name. Yes. Their name a suggestion from one of my clients is to use is to ask the person who’s just joined your offer, which like which emoji is their favorite, because then you can draw it out and they’ll know it’s them. But the emoji in itself is not identifying like say if someone like a unicorn or someone like a, a lightning bolt, you know, they all know it’s them. And it’s a way for you to signify the anonymization that you want to honor for your clients. But also it’s their way of knowing like, oh, I know that’s me like the lightning bolt, mine, that sort of thing. So there, there are ways around it. There’s definitely some ways you can be more playful of it.



And I do want to also let you know, a new practice us to do as well. So again, it’s relatively new, probably on the tail end of 2021. I started to do this whenever I launch something for the first time. And I use testimonials from different offers to showcase like the kind of experience of what it like to work with me. Or if I’m relaunching something like a 2.0 or a 3.0 and I’m using testimonials from the previous rounds, I email my clients whose testimonials I’ve used. And the subject line of the email is testimonial free consent request. Mm. And I will do similar to what you do when you’re asking consent to, to use someone’s DM screenshots for social proof. I let them know that I’m so grateful for their testimonial and that I’m thinking of launching it again. And curious if they’re still open to me using their testimonial on our, and I’ll copy and page the testimonial that I’ve done.



I’ll ask if they’re open to making any adjustments. If so, but also no pressure whatsoever to say yes to this. Because if you feel like this is not aligned with you anymore, you feel this incongruent with your current business, like where it’s at right now, please let me know, because we want to honor where you’re at right now. And then I do leave it in their hands. And I’m extremely grateful that my clients who have worked with me, they’re like, oh my God. Yes. Of course, like, please do you, the in fact this has happened since then add they on. Amazing.






See. But even on the flip side, if they have said, no, I’m like good. I’d much rather you not feel exposed in any shape or form. Yeah. In association with me because all of my work is to do about safety and consent and sustainable visibility. And a client can feel very visible when they see themselves on your sales page for something. Yeah. So visibility is not what you necessarily think it is in, in its entirety. It’s not just about the podcast. You guests on the events you speak at. Like that is a part of it, but there are plenty of different ways that you can be visible for sure. And I’ve had peers who have had to request to have their testimonials taken down because they were misrepresent when it was being reshuffled. So when I asked for testimonials from my clients or my collaborators, I always asked them, would you like me to run this by you first?



Just so that everything feels incongruent with you. Sorry, incongruence. Like, it feels congruent for you again, can’t English today. So long as it feels right for you. That’s basically what I’m trying to say. Yeah. Trying to use fancy words this morning. And I, and I honor whether they say yes or no to that, you know, because again, I want them to feel like, yes, I consented to this. This is like pure representation of how I feel about how I collaborate with you, how I worked with you, et cetera, et cetera. So again, I know that the things I’m suggesting in this episode right now, they are not the most convenient things to do, but which is the greater cost for you. Absolutely gonna leave out. Yeah.



Yeah. And you know what, even as you were just talking, then what I was thinking was about the sustainability of that, that, yes, it might not feel convenient in the moment when you’re maybe rushing to update a sales page or, you know, get something out or, you know, rushing to get a new client or new people signing up to your program. But at the end of the day, the sustainability comes from when people feel safe in your space and working with you and connecting with you that that is so much more sustainable than continuing to burn people and act out of congruence with them and make them feel unsafe because they’re not gonna stay in your business and continue working with or sharing your work either. So yes, it might seem convenient the interim in the short term, but at the end of the day, what you’re talking about really is about how sustainable your community is and how safe you are making your people feel. And I don’t know. I think that that’s so much more important.



I completely agree. And I thank you for speaking to that, almost like that transactional feeling of kind of like burning through people and like, oh, next, next, next. So thank you next. Yeah. So when you think about expanding your reach, I want to invite everybody who’s listening right now and your you yourself as well. Katherine, the expansion of your reach doesn’t necessarily have to be you reaching every single person. Yeah. Do you not discount the people that you’ve gone to such depth with and they all help expand your message for you because they’re advocates of you. They want to spread your work because of what you’ve done for them. So allow the depth of your work, help with the breadth of reach of your work. So don’t feel that pressure to just for you to reach every single person individually, because I’ve made my peace with that a long time ago.



Like I don’t wanna be the one to reach a million people by myself. I, I want my, I want my name to be like in hush tones and whispers in the DMS and in private conversations as well as out in the open like, oh yes, I choose Mai-kee for this. And I’m extremely grateful for the people who continue to advocate for me. And I know that is the case for my audience because when they find me so many of them stay for years, there is someone who I recently signed on as a client for a new one-on-one offer. I have for the I’ve called it the Space Holders Haven. And it’s to really design your, your consensual process like before, during, and after when you work with someone. And I know this person has been with me for at least two years, because I remember when we first spoke on a cup of catch up, which is something else I do with my email list and this little Easter egg that I have on my list.



But yeah, that I know that my people stay. And I know it’s because of the depths that I take them to. And it’s thanks to them that my work like gets carried like little, like beautiful messenger pigeons in the online industry, you know? Yeah. That are there, they’re supporters. And I’m so grateful for that. And all of you who are listening, you have people who are supporting you without you realizing it because they may not show the fact that they’re supporting you out in the open. They may only do it in private conversations, but please please know that they’re there as well. Yes,



Absolutely. And for all of my introverts who are such a, a huge part of my audience and the people that I work with the most, I think that that is so in alignment with so many of the conversations and the doubts, I think that sometimes we can have, especially those of us who are just start maybe starting out that, oh, if I’m not this big rah, you know, seen and heard in a certain kind of way, how can I ever get clients or grow my business or have this be a long term thing. And you’ve just absolutely summed up the way that it is possible and in a way that can be sustainable and energizing for us as more introverted people. So thank you so much for that. Absolutely wonderful gem of wisdom at the end there



You’re very welcome. And to all of the people who are ambiverts and extroverts, please know this also applies to you as well. Yes, because we are all people human, like interacting with other people here. So of course, like, you know, I’m also an introvert myself. So I’m like, Hey, like power to the, the I, but yes, to all the ambivert and extroverts out there, we see you too.



Absolutely. And this approach can work for you. You’ve said it a bunch of times. My people will hear me say it all the time as well, take what works for you and leave the rest, you know, try out this way. And some of the things that Mai-kee has suggested today and brought up and see what works for you, how can you create safety and consent in your community and conversations as well? I just genuinely cannot. Thank you enough. It was such a joy to connect with you. And I, I just wanna thank you again so much before we finish up. Can you please share with all of the people listening who have just gotten so much out of this? I already know how everyone can connect with you further. Everything will be in the show notes, but yeah, just so they can hear from you how they can connect with you further.



Absolutely. So first of all, thank you so, so much for this conversation. That’s been so wonderful to start off my day here in the UK, and I really love what we covered today. So thank you first and foremost. And to answer your question. So there are a couple ways that you could reach me, so you could reach me on Instagram. That’s my personal preference for social media interaction. So you can find me at Mary Kay saying, I, I will, I, I’m not gonna spell because I know it’s gonna be in the show notes, but it’s gonna be in the show notes. So if you’re curious, like how do I spell your name? Cause that’s not very obvious name to spell. Don’t worry if we got you, you can also check out my website, ma, same spelling, but again, in the show notes. And if you are interested in learning more with me, not from me, but with me to co-create your own sense of safety. When it comes to visibility, I invite you to check out my sustainable visibility incubator. You can find out more about that at And yeah, for those of you who may be resonating with this type of work, that you check that out. And for those of you who don’t and you just enjoy the conversation and that’s awesome too. So those are three places you can find me. And on my website in itself, you can check out the different other office I have. If you’re interested in the workshops I mentioned today,



Thank you so much, Makay. It has been an absolute joy.



Thank you. Thank



You so much for listening to another episode of the Emerge and Expand podcast. If you would like to connect further with make and learn more about her work, as well as checking out any of the links that were mentioned today and a full transcript of this episode, you’ll find the show slash podcast. Oh oh nine. And I would love to hear from you if you’ve been enjoying this podcast, if you have anything that you would like me to talk about or share with you in upcoming episodes, or if there’s someone that you think would be perfect for the do business differently interview series, please head over to Instagram and connect with me at miss_kms or shoot me an email to hello(at)katherinemackenziesmith(dot)com. Otherwise I will catch you in the next one.




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I acknowledge the Quandamooka Peoples whose land I live, learn, work and play in Wynnum, Australia and pay respects to Ancestors and Elders, past and present as well as to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in my wider communities and acknowledged that sovereignty was never ceded.

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